Talk:Bulaq Press

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On 18 February 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Amiri Press to Bulaq Press. The result of the discussion was moved.

Bulaq/Amiri

What was the initial name of the press: Bulaq Press or Amiri Press? If it was Bulaq Press, then why and when did it change to Amiri Press? On French Wikipedia the name is "Boulaq" and on Turkish Wikipedia the name is "Bulak", which to me suggests that the name Amiri appeared later. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 16:29, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I translated the article from Arabic before those articles existed, anglicizing the official name المطابع الأميرية (al-matābi' al-Amīrīya) before I had access to much in the way of English sources. I agree that it should be Bulaq Press as it seems to be the common name. I actually tried to move it the other day but was unable to. Let's request a technical move? إيان (talk) 17:57, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the request. إيان (talk) 18:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved to Bulaq Press, per WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE. Three editors have opined on this move request; two in favor of Amiria Press and one in favor of Bulaq Press.

From this, it is clear that there is a consensus against the current title. However, there is no consensus to be found between the two options; while Amiria Press had more !votes, the arguments in favor of it relied on Google search results, which have two issues; the hit count is extremely unreliable, and because we are required to base our article titles on the use in reliable sources, a Google search (as opposed to, for example, a Google News or Google Scholar search) includes many results we should not be relying on.

The argument in opposition was slightly stronger; it relied on Google Ngrams results, which is limited to published books, and provides an accurate count. However, it was not strong enough to overcome the numerical preference for Amiria Press.

Considering this, in line with WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE, I have moved the article to the title for which the stronger argument was presented, but this move is done without consensus and any editor may open a new move request at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 11:05, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Amiri Press → Bulaq Press – common name إيان (talk) 18:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 17:13, 26 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 09:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Steel1943 (talk) 19:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@إيان: Pinging nominator to let them know the discussion has been moved here. Steel1943 (talk) 19:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by nominator. @UnladenSwallow was also involved in the exchange above. إيان (talk) 19:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
~~Undecided~~ [changed opinion, see below – 27 Feb]. A search for "Bulaq Press" on Google Scholar yields 444 results; out of top 10 results, 10 are in English and 9 contain "Bulaq Press" in the title or snippet (1). A search for "Amiri Press" yields 303 results; out of top 10 results, only 4 are in English and only 2 contain "Amiri Press" in the title or snippet (2). This seems to indicate that "Bulaq Press" is indeed the common name of the press in English (at least when discussing its operation in the mid-19th century, when it was one of the two most important presses in the Arabic world, which is why it is the subject of many articles). So it seems we should use "Bulaq Press" per WP:COMMONNAME.

At the same time, the website address of the modern organization is alamiria.com, and "Al Amiria" written in Latin script is actually part of its logo. So it seems we should use "Al Amiria" (without the "Press"), since that is how the organization is styling its name in Latin script.

The Bibliotheca Alexandrina's webpage on the Bulaq Press describes the many name changes the press went through (3):

The press was first named Dar El Teba'a (House of Printing), as cited on the Foundation Plaque, whereas on the first publication, the 'Italian - Arabic Dictionary' the name Matba'et Saheb El Sa'ada (His Excellency's Press), appeared. The first pages of the dictionary included the footer: "Printed at His Excellency's Press", while the name written on the Italian edition was 'Al Amiriya Press', with 'Bolacco' written in a large font and the statement 'Della Stamperia Reale' underneath . Other names of the Press cited were 'Imprimerie Royale' as well as other variations of the name, depending on the author's creativity in describing the Press. `but 'Bulaq Press' seemed to be constant in all citations.

In 1862, Said Pasha donated the Bulaq Press to Abdel Rahman Roushdy, and the name was changed to 'Abdel Rahman Roushdy Press at Bulaq'. In later years, during the reign of Khedive Ismail, the name of the Press changed to 'Al-Saneya Bulaq Press', a time when the Press was privately owned by the Khedive family. The name of the Bulaq Press changed for the third time during the reign of Khedive Tawfiq, to become the 'Bulaq Amiriya Press' and again in 1903 to the 'Amiriya Press at Bulaq'. In 1956, President Gamal Abdel Nasser established the Ministry of Industry and issued a Presidential decree, founding the Public Association of Printing Press affiliated to the Ministry, under the name 'The Public Association for the Affairs of the Amiriya Press'.

Throughout all the name changes except the last one, "Bulaq" was preserved, making "Bulaq Press" a convenient way to refer to the press without listing all of its historical names.

In summary, there is a conflict between referring to the historical press and referring to the modern organization. "Bulaq Press" is the best way to refer to the historical press (located in Bulaq district, Cairo) irrespective of its many name changes, while "Al Amiria" is the official English name of the modern organization (located in Embaba district, Cairo since ~~1958~~ 1973 [see 4 – 20 Feb]). I don't know how to resolve this conflict. Let me think about it for a few days. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2023 (UTC); edited 16:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC); edited 18:30, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bulaq Press is the clear common name in English reliable sources according to Ngrams. إيان (talk) 18:19, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose; rename to "Amiria Press" instead. Rationale:

1. The website address of the organization is alamiria.com and the logo of the organization features "Al Amiria" (in Latin script). Clearly, the modern organization prefers to Romanize its name as "Al Amiria".

2. The first non-Arabic book published by the organization – the Italian edition of the Italian–Arabic Dictionary, published in 1822 – featured "Al Amiriya Press" (in Latin script).

3. Here's a table with Google Search results (I have omitted variations that have resulted in less than 10 results):

Query	Number of results
"Amiri Press"	4540
"Al Amiri Press"	250
"Al-Amiri Press"	400
"Amiria Press"	19,800
"Al Amiria Press"	267
"Al-Amiria Press"	268
"Amiriya Press"	695
"Al Amiriya Press"	421
"Al-Amiriya Press"	366
"Amiriyah Press"	145
"Al Amiriyah Press"	84
"Al-Amiriyah Press"	124
"Bulaq Press"	10,100
"Boulaq Press"	2810
"Bulak Press"	317
"Boulak Press"	40

"Amiria Press" provides most results (twice as much as "Bulaq Press").

4. "Bulaq Press" is how the organization is referred to in English-language books and articles on history when discussing its operation (and its impact) in the 19th century. In my opinion, we shouldn't use a nickname used by historians to name an article about an organization that continues to operate today; however, we must mention this nickname in the opening sentence of the article because that's how the organization is referred to in almost all English-language books (again, because all those books are about the 19th century period in the history of the organization, not the modern organization). For example:

Amiria Press (Arabic: المطابع الأميرية, ALA-LC: al-Maṭābiʻ al-Amīrīyah), referred to as the Bulaq Press in Western literature on its history, is the first Egyptian press^[a] and the first government-owned Arabic press, established by Egyptian ruler Muhammad Ali in 1820.

Notes

^ The first press operated on the territory of Egypt was the press operated by the French Army during its invasion of Egypt in 1798–1801.

— UnladenSwallow (talk) 18:27, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2nd relist comment. So far this debate is between two editors both with excellent arguments. It is hoped that more editors will become involved in this RM survey and discussion. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 09:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Amiria Press. Good arguments have been made by multiple parties in the discussion. I think the strongest overall case is for "Amiria Press," which appears to be the English-language WP:COMMONNAME (per UnladenSwallow's thorough search). Amiria Press seems to be particularly relevant as the common name in recent sources, so titling the article Amiria Press seems to be in keeping with the spirit of WP:NAMECHANGES as well. This being said, I also concur with the statement that "Bulaq Press" should be mentioned in the first sentence of the lead, and that title should redirect to this page as well. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:09, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] The first press operated on the territory of Egypt was the press operated by the French Army during its invasion of Egypt in 1798–1801.

[a]